Tuesday, February 12, 2008

Scathing rebuttal as follows:

First: Damn . . . just to make it easy on you.

Second: I agree with your last part about the Spirit being equally as active now as in the first century. That's foundational to me; I don't see any great breaks in the continuity of reality between today and any previous age. BUT, for me that is a fatal blow to orthodoxy, because I see no superiority of the paradigm of first century believers over modern day believers. The disciples of the first century were presented with a story just as we are, and both are required as a simple matter of fact to interpret it based on our understanding of reality.  

When you speak of rewriting Scripture according to our paradigm, I fail to see how we can speak pejoratively of doing so. In fact, I see such rewriting as our only option. I understand the concern that this could result in Scripture becoming "whatever we want" it to be. To this concern I would pose: do we really believe the Spirit is as active today? Really? If so, I believe that within community Scripture will always be rewritten, in the Spirit (Presence = Present) of God. We hold to the same Bible because we have no other access to Jesus. If we could figure a method for time travel, I would much prefer a few good documentaries from which to seek a more applicable interpretation of Jesus. Thus far, this has not proved a viable option. So, I stick with Scripture . . but according to my understanding, not theirs. Again I don't think they were better off than we.  

Third: I firmly agree that the Jesus of history is the core of our faith. I've never once questioned this. Never. But, all we know of Jesus is shrouded in myth and metaphor. I don't believe this is due to an attempt to obscure him, nor to make him out to be something other than what he was. In the paradigm of the first century though, myth and metaphor was interpretation. When presenting their Savior to the world, the first believers did what was utterly natural to them: present him in the category or a rabbi, miracle-worker, Pharisee, and in doing so also show how he was much more than any of these things. This was interpreting for them. Their interpretations, for myself and countless others in our contemporary world, have ceased to aid in understanding Jesus. In fact, quite the opposite if in the name of orthodoxy I am required to believe not only in Jesus as Lord, but also as supernatural miracle-man. Culturally, I don't find the first-century worldview to be superior, and if I am required to bastardize my own understanding of reality in order to call myself Christian, I am regrettably not. I agree with you that Christianity makes some fantastic claims. At the core of Christianity, I can perceive claims which will always seem outrageous. . . I've read Paul. I understand that some of our faith will appear as foolishness, but I feel that we have readily taken this as a justification (in the face of Modernism) for adhering to a syncretism of worldviews which are incompatible. We want to act as though it is perfectly fine to live by the principles of modernity in all facets of life, except religion where it is perfectly acceptable to flee to an inconsistent premodern view of history. I cannot accept this. The foolishness we embrace is one that remains no matter what paradigm we use to interpret Jesus. Therefore, I cannot look back on the first-century as a bygone time, utterly different from our own, where supernatural miracles were the rule. I only think that people of that time interpreted as miraculous, the same event that we would seek to understand through causal relationships. Where they saw God in the miracle worker, I see God in the depth of his humanity and I use the miracle myths to understand such humanity better.

Lastly: I see major theological problems with the idea that God simply sectored off part of himself in which death could reign for a while and be absorbed. The Living God stands over against death. But more importantly than all of this is that it represents a line of thought that is thoroughly foreign to Jews of any era, and unquestionably foreign to the Jews responsible for the writings of the New Testament. To these, God cannot die.

This is a big deal to me, because I see it as one of the major dividing lines between Christianity and the other two Abrahamic faiths. It is true, I am not currently in dialogue with many Jews of Muslims. But, I find it to be of no little theological importance that we live in a world where the annihilation of the human race could likely occur because of a disagreement between these religions. I find it to be the worst blasphemy to assume that such an event would be justified by some bullshit eschatology on the part of Christians who would dare to assume that God wills a final battle between those who know him as YHWH, God, or Allah. If there is any hope for the future of humanity, it will begin because we begin to take seriously the call to interpret our religions critically, and against what we are required to believe for the sake of remaining orthodox. As a Christian who takes seriously the threat which my own faith poses to the future of humanity, I see it as necessary to critique what I think to be outdated and divisive concepts of God, and Jesus the founder of my faith.

I say all that to say, I've thought seriously about these things. There is nothing trivial about them to me. I don't trifle with orthodoxy for the sake of stepping on toes.

We cling to the idea that God loved the world enough to send Jesus (whatever that may mean to us). Yet, we think it noble or unavoidable to allow the tension between religions to escalate towards the death of life itself. I can point the finger in this situation indefinitely towards any other and in the coming future the result of hell on earth will remain unchanged. Or, I can critique my own faith deeply, and in doing so see its true contribution to hope, while standing firmly against all the divisiveness it has represented. In doing so I cling to the thought that such an example will lead the world to be a place where God does not will, nor allow, me to kill another for choosing to call him Allah.

If I say anything controversial, it is because I have ceased to see a future in saying anything else.






6 Comments:

At 6:12 PM , Blogger Jonathan Storment said...

My dear liberal pig friend...Jk, okay so we agree on something.
I want to talk about this one issue at a time so I can understand and be understood better so how about this one. The Supernatural. While I love to study myth, and agree that much of the gospel employs it, I don't think we can universally say that all of the gospel is myth and therefore say that miracles didn't happen/don't happen. You understand that I am writing from the context of having seen stuff that I believe happened supernaturally i.e. the blind lady in Sri Lanka suddenly gaining her sight back, or having Anton pray over us, stuff like that. For me that didn't just shoot theology out the window, it helped me understand how God is still real and not just a history lesson.
The problem is that God reveals himself through all worldviews but tends to transcend them as well. The enlightenment liked to have God in a tidy little box, and then that God became to small and domesticated to believe in. The pre-modern times had God as some cruel task master that loved to barter with people in some arbitrary way, never giving them peace. But both of these versions of God are just boxed in versions of him. And each time he raised up people as prophets to correct peoples perceptions of Him. We can't look outside of our own w.v. we are human and we know in part. But God does communicate to us through these as well as try to show us how much bigger he is than our own constructs. The thing about miracles is that they were always signs to point to something else, here is where our views overlap again. I think that the main miracles in Jesus and the main miracles in Acts are the ability to reconcile humanity. The biggest miracles Jesus performed were that he saw those people who needed healing. He touched the unclean, he cut past labels, and was able to identify and reclaim for these people the humanity that God had originally intended for them.
2nd when I was talking about viewing Scripture through our own paradigm and preferences I was trying to just point out that each of us have things that we believe outside of empirical evidences and then assemble the information in a way that supports what we on some level already believe. I think we all do this with the gospels. That's what Albert Schweitzer was getting at when he said, "When we look down the well of history to see the original Jesus, we look down a well so deep that all we actually see is our own reflection." The Psalmist says, The fool says in his heart there is no God. It isn't that he observed all of the empirical information and decided that God doesn't exist, it's that you find what you are looking for. Your faith precedes and informs what you find that you trust in. Does that makes sense? This is why I mentioned orthodox faith here, because I want to be honest with where I am coming from. When I interpret the historical context of the gospel, I want to look at it through the lens of how it has been interpreted over the last thousands of years. Not just swallowing it whole heartedly, but challenging as well as being tutored by it. Especially the areas of the church where she bore much fruit/is bearing fruit. i.e. liberation theology, the monastic community (that for you Bosch and Chambers).
I don't doubt or question your passion or think that you are taking this lightly or without much thought. Just the opposite, that's why I comment, because I love and respect my friend Joe.
p.s. Let me chew on the ressurection/atonement thing more, I have some scattered thoughts but I want to be able to spell out what I am thinking better.

 
At 9:22 PM , Blogger Joe said...

hmmm.
so about your experience in India. Here's what we know: the lady had a bad eye. I'm sure had an M.D. been there with the right ophthalmic training they could have diagnosed her disorder and explained why her eye did not work. After her healing, I imagine, the same M.D. could take a look at her eye with the right equipment and explain to us why it did work. If we had a before and after I'm sure the M.D. could venture a tentative explanation as to what changed.

What the M.D. doesn't really know is Why or precisely how the switch went down.

In nursing school we went over a case study of a lady with multiple personality disorder. This case had one distinctive feature: this lady had one personality that was diabetic, and five others that weren't! This means that her mind at some point flipped a switch which made certain pancreatic cells act as though they were dead, and the rest of the time (the majority) her pancreas functioned quite normally. The case had natural explanations as to what was going on, and to some degree we know why (psychosomatic illness), but science really has no idea how.

All that to say . . . "supernatural" in my mind, is sort of an asinine category. The truth is that we don't have near the grasp on nature that we think we do. The human body is capable of all kinds of things that should be thoroughly impossible. The problem is that they are possible, in fact they happen all the time. And, that's before we factor God into the equation. My point is that God doesn't need a supernatural realm, he can do more than enough miracles within nature that we will probably never be able to explain. "Supernatural" in my opinion is quite superfluous. I am perfectly ok, assuming that the miracles Jesus performed were all well within the scope of 'nature'. I just don't necessarily believe he performed all of the miracles accorded to him within the NT, and that is probably where we differ. Though I know we are in agreement to the purpose of any of those miracles, whether they happened or not.

To your second point, I agree completely that there is a great wealth to be gained from the various interpretations down through the ages. That much is certain. And for the few of us who care to wade through the arduous and occasionally beautiful landscape of Christian history it is certainly a wonderful set of experiences to be had. Unfortunately most of our culture finds it tedious and arbitrary and just wants it spelled out simply what the gospel is now.

It's for these people, particularly the one's who reject Christianity or those who find themselves on the margins of faith, that I feel we would do better to abandon the fetters of orthodoxy and make an honest attempt to explain the story IN (post)modern terms FOR (post)modern people.

I agree that there is a risk of simply making the gospel whatever we want it to be . . . but, again, I think that the excessive fear of such a risk is a severe underestimation of the work of the Spirit. I also think it right to rely on the dialogic communities we find ourselves in to critique and fill out where this discussion leads us. In fact, I think that a requirement for the flourishing of any faith as I see the favored realm of the Holy Spirit to be between us. So, in other words, thanks for you input. I love you, and hope that through all of this God is making us better.

 
At 9:50 PM , Blogger dallasjg said...

Brilliant Blog!! I loved the last paragraph, and concluding line!
Also, in the NT it is in John where the "signs" are found. Completely different word for a completely different reason. Miracle in the synoptics weren't signs...they were the action of God in restoring the world by threatening the "powers that be." You can see a nice treatment of this in Crossan's "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography," where he talks about the demon possessed man in the tomb (while I differ with Crossan on a great deal, I love this treatment of that story)!

 
At 11:55 PM , Blogger Jonathan Storment said...

Hey dude, I like the way you described a lot of this, especially the way we have categorized the supernatural. I love you too, and I wouldn't join in the dialogue if I didn't think that God was going to use it to make us more than who we currently are. Good stuff Joe.

 
At 10:16 AM , Blogger KSullie said...

Joe, to many people, including myself, it matters deeply that God came among us and suffered with us,

So, for someone who doesnt believe that the first century Believers knew Jesus as God himself, what do you say about the above?

Does it not matter deeply to you that this seems to mean that God did not come down among us and suffer with us? Or, do you think he still did, somehow?

It always made God so much more...legitimate, or something, to me that he came down.

Anyway, just a thought. I am interested to hear what you think.
I havent re-read your posts below this week so maybe you never said that you dont believe Jesus was God...but I think you did.

Thanks

 
At 10:55 PM , Blogger Joe said...

Kristin,

Recently I wrote that I consider myself a pan-en-theist, which is just a fancy way of saying that I think the world is in God. In God we "live, move, and have our being". I find one of the most profound insights of the OT to be in the psalms when "David" realizes there is nowhere he can flee from God's presence. God is everywhere. No matter how black and dark and 'ungodly' our world ever seems, God is nonetheless present. I think God was in Auschwitz, in all of our wars, and certainly in the cross.

I read recently that the concept of God being separate from the world is actually something that 'inter-testamental' Judaism adopted from Persian Zoroastrianism. Or a better way to put it, Alexander the Great's soldiers came home from their conquests with new religious ideas, including the idea that the world was the plane between heaven and hell. The "three-story" model for the world has nothing to do with Judaism, or even Hellenism, but is a Persian mythology that worked its way into the Hellenistic world when the Greeks came home.

So several centuries later, it was sort of the standard way of understanding reality. There was heaven above with all the good and beneficial beings, and hell below with all evil, malevolent beings. The world was the level in between where life goes on as we know it, with our first and third story neighbors interfering and making noise on a frequent basis.

Jewish laypeople made use of this mythology, as it was a part of the worldview grew up in, but outside of Daniel and a few other late books in the OT it's quite foreign to the mindset. The NT speaks to it frequently, but in my opinion it does so in a missional way. I don't find that the NT incorporates any such worldview into the actual fabric of 'the gospel'.

In other words, I have no problem with God not "coming down" since I think he's already here. And, the worldview that such a model is based on is quite obsolete in my opinion. (All respect to Zoroaster, but we have moved on) I don't think any of this means we can't hold on to an Incarnation, but it does mean we have to radically reconsider HOW God was incarnated in Jesus . . . which I'm far from conclusive on.

 

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